Talk:19

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Contents 1 Khalifa Translation 2 Criticisms 3 Please read (more criticism) 4 General comments

[edit] Khalifa Translation

I've added a link to a new page where i've listed verses from Khalifa's translation that include his name, and linked his Quran on 19.org. I know this page isn't specifically about Khalifa's Quran (exactly) but I couldn't think of a better place to put it.

Is it just me or does this article look a bit jumbled atm? I know its still in the works though. Good work whale!! :)

Sanitarium 16:44, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

thanks! Yea, it is jumbled proabbly. I might look at it later, but atleast we have a start. Actually, when he added his name, he was only replacing the contents of the brackets, which are already not the part of the translations. For example you'll see the word 'lightly' added in 4:34 in brackets in some soft translations. Its not a part of the actual arabic, but your other concerns about his additions/substractions of the two verses are true. I didnt know that was true. But yes, even if he added the words in brackets, he has changed the implied meaning of the verses.--Whale 18:29, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

Yeah someone just brought that up on the forums and I was wondering if I should remove the page. So I dunno. Should I remove the page? What do you think?

Sanitarium 19:00, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

Hm, we could leave it because he did change the words in the brackets. He's trying to change the implied meaning of the verses, but you could link it differently and remove the comments where you say he changed the Quran to, "he changed the implied meaning", etc.--Whale 19:12, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

Done! Feel free to fix the wording if you find the time :) Sanitarium 06:08, 22 April 2007 (PDT)

Looks great! thanks. --Whale 11:08, 22 April 2007 (PDT)

[edit] Criticisms

eddyjawed 03:06, 22 november 2008 (GMT) After reading this article at first glnace anyone could be fooled into thinking that yes, the mathsmatician has indeed found a flaw in the incredible 19 code miracle of the Quran. However on closer examination one can clearly see that this article is fatally FLAWED! Basically, anyone can get a two digit number and split it into an ANV value, that can also be added on concatonated onto another ANV value to produce a number that is divisible by 19. But if you look at the submitters maths miracle claims, they are not doing this! You'll fool the fools - but please I tried to read with an open mind and so far you haven't fooled anyone but yourself. This 19 article should be deleted - it is FALSE!

As the article states, there are no clear rules in order to find 19 miracles. The submitters have also concatenated various numbers. How is their method right and ours wrong? --Whale 19:11, 22 November 2008 (PST)

eddyjawed 03:58, 22 november 2008 (GMT) You are wrong about gematrical calculations. They are different to ANV. In the gematrical calculation, the individual letters are added to make the number like Rashad = 505. Whereas you are splitting the value of each letter to make larger numbers then adding them together to make a number you want that is divisble by 19. You are lying and this is a fraud and you shouldn't be allowed to write these anti-islamic articles because of thier malicious lying nature. People are not so easily fooled. I never said they didn't concatonate the numbers too. The reason yours is wrong because you are concatonating made up numbers which equal the value of the character and with a 1:19 chance, they will become divisble by 19. This is relatively easy to do and is a cheap maths trick. Your article is wrong and you shouldn't be allowed to post incorrect information - this is misleading people for no reason.

There is no right and wrong way of getting these miracles. Thats one of the points in the articles. Give a specific example of a correct mathematical calculation and a pick a wrong one from our article. Lets see which one is wrong. --Whale 20:23, 22 November 2008 (PST)

eddyjawed 03:58, 22 november 2008 (GMT) Oh my God, this highlights your lack of understanding in the whole 19 code concept.

Very simple examples are:

1. Basmalah = 19 letters - OK yes I know, that is easy to emulate. What about the following, bear in mind this book has not changed since the last 1400 years (except for the 2 verses):

2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19 x 6.

3. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.

4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19 x 6.

5. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals.

6. Muslim 5 daily prayer sequence. 2 (Fajr) + 4 (Zohr) + 4 (Asr) + 3 (Maghrib) + 4 (Isha) i.e 24434 = 19 x 1286

etc!

These are a handful, theres lots more. Tell me where I have split the individual gematrical value of one character into different numbers that equal it calling it ANV like you did? Simply nowhere. Whereas YOU haven't done this at all.

Lets look at one of your calculations too using your 'ANV', even though they are wrong: الخنزير Translation: The Pig

Correct gematrical values should be: 1 + 4 + 600 + 50 + 7 + 10 + 200 (ا+ل+لخ+ن+ز+ي+ر) = The Pig = 872

Wheras Your ANV of these values says: 11 + 302 + 6003 + 504 + 75 + 106 + 2007

Firstly even with your method shown on the page I don't know how the hell you got these calculations. However regardless of whichever odd way you split them up, in no way whatsoever does RK follow the your principle which is a cheap maths trick where even my own name can be divided by 19, with a 1:19 chance.

1. The ANV (arabic numerical value) for ل is 30, not 4.
2. The total verses in Quran are 6234. The number you mentioned comes up when you add bismillahs. What kind of rules are these? Plus, some sites say there's a dispute over the total number of verses, so that argument is just invalid. Your first job is to establish the total number of verses.
3. All other miracles are just selective, picking and choosing where the numbers fit. If you add up 2+4+4+3+4, its 17, not 19. If the 24434 wouldnt have worked, you guys would have added the numbers and tried that route. There are no written rules of finding these miracles and as you said ,the chance of finding a miracle is just 1 in 19.
4. According to this site, some numbers were not included in that calculation. Why not? Once again, you guys are selective. If you are trying to do all these selective things, then why cant we also be selective about what we do? There you go. --Whale 15:33, 23 November 2008 (PST)

eddyjawed 23:38, 23 november 2008 (GMT)

LOL! hahahah - I like the way you ended it with 'there you go'. Thats the most stupidest way of backing your phoney maths tricks. Sure typo error ل is 30, not 4. The point isn't that we're defining set rules for the maths, the point is that the rules we use are a lot harder in chance - far greater than 1/19, than your method. You'll have to try harder I'm afraid looking at this article and your explanation to convince me...but nice try though ;)

Explain exactly how you made that 'typo' about Laam being 4 and not 30. Nah, your rules and selectiveness are not the "right" rules so your rules are no 'harder' than our rules. --Whale 15:46, 23 November 2008 (PST)

Why don't you visit my site, http://www.12-3.co.uk, and stop trying to hack my computer, you bunch of Devil worshippers. And continue with the rest of the verse, you will find the answer, and what about the two Books, the Elyeen and the Sijeen, the numerically structured books, why would God mention these in the Quran, if there was no relevance to the mathematical code presented by the only original text of any religion, still found in its original form, where is the Aramaic Gospel? the Hebrew Torah? the Hindus scriptures? and the Buddhist scriptures? Even the Sikh book is altered and changed with the times. The Quran is the only book stil preserved in its original form, and it wasn't a force that preserves it it is a mathematical code or a numerically structured Book, which proves it to be the word of God. peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.8.27.236 (talk • contribs) (How to sign your posts)

This article is about the number 19, not 3. No one here is trying to hack your computer, it must be someone else. ANV = Arabic numerival value. PNV = Pythagorean Number Value. As for Quran being preserved with time, monkey brains have been preserved in laboratories in little jars all over the World. Does that mean they're holy in some way? Preservation means nothing. Now if you have something to comment on the specific proofs found in this article, please feel free to do so. This article proves that there is NO mathematical code in the Quran. If its mathematical, then so is the following phrase holy in nature:

بسم الله الخَبِيث الوَحْشِيّ

Translation: In the name of Allah, the Evil, the Savage

As this article says, there are 19 related miracles found in this phrase too. And about this "what about the two Books, the Elyeen and the Sijeen," -- what verses are you talking about? --Whale 10:18, 28 April 2009 (PDT)

LOLSubmittors: iliyin - Quran 83:18-20, Sijeen - Quran 83:7-9 Sanitarium 10:39, 28 April 2009 (PDT)

Ah I see. There ya go. thanks. 92.8.27.236, whats your response to that? As you can see, it was only Khalifa that called the book "numerically structured". This is the same guy who says he's the real last prophet of Allah. Please refer to more authentic translations of the Quran and you'll find there's NO verse in the Quran refering to mathematical characteristics of Quran or any other book.--Whale 10:50, 28 April 2009 (PDT)

[edit] Please read (more criticism)

Assalam Alaikum, Please consider the ayeh right after the one about the number 19. This next ayeh clearly states that the number 19 is a fitnah (I think Fitnah means seduction in english) and should not even be thought about. The number 19 only seduces the kafir(non-believer) as stated in the next ayeh. Please Consider what I said and forget everything about this number as it will lead you to losing your deen(religion). Thanks wa assalam alaikum.

Hi Samsams, thank you for your input. Although I beleive fitnah in English means Disbelief and al fitnah the disbelief. See Kathir's tafsir Quran 2:190. Sanitarium 00:53, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

Samsams, the number 19 seduces the kafir? What else, the number 20 makes the kafir drunk or something? I dont think you've read the article. Please do. --Whale 04:56, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I think he's saying tha this 19 stuff sorts the 'true believers' from the kafir believers (hyprocrites). ie. whoever believes this is a kafir. I don't think he was talking about us lol Sanitarium 04:59, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I see, I read the next verse now. Also he's telling us we should forget the number because it will make us loose our deen which means he thinks this is a muslim site. In any case I doubt he'll be back. Anyway, Samsam "brother" yes, fitnah does not mean seduction by any means. Read this on wikipedia. --Whale 07:42, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I'm back! Are you saying that this site isn't made by Muslims? And I knew that Fitna had a different meaning, but I couldn't find it. And you can't call Bismillah a miracle because nobody really knows. Only God knows and we can't guess something without being told by the prophet (PBUH). Samsams(not my real name, just for security)

Read the article and you'll find the site was not created by Muslims. Do read the FAQ page too as linked by Sanitarium above. --Whale 12:17, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

Samsams: for clarification, the article is NOT saying the 19 miracle is true, it is saying it is FALSE, so we agree with you! Thank you for your input! Sanitarium 12:18, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

Well now that I have read it! I'm not happy with the way you say things about the religion. FYI, for many years people have been trying to find ways to prove the religion correct. There is solid evidence that proves the religion to be from Allah, while there is evidence that is very shaky such as the number 19 thing, which was made by a man that true Muslims do not actually like. I would also like to say that Miracles are only Miracles if the Quran or the prophet state so, which means that the number 19 should not have even been thought of as a miracle. The number 19 thing was just something rashid was trying to make so that he may call himself a prophet.

The belief that Islam/Quran have mathematical miracles in them is not limited to followers of Rashad K, for example [1] site, the link to which is there in the External links section. There are many muslims that claim these kinds of miracles exist without perhaps even knowing who Rashad K was. This article disproves the whole mathematical miracle concept. --Whale 13:05, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

Also, the number 19 idea was not very bad, as it was based on some things in the Islamic history. BTW, the first verses of the Quran that were revealed to the prophet consisted of 19 words. The next verses consisted of 19x2 words and so on. This could either be a coincidence or something that has some meaning to it that only God knows. The coincidence is not very literally as I have already told you what it means in the verse after the one about the number 19. This number 19 interests Muslims and makes the religion have some things that could be noticed without truly understanding it and could spice up people's beliefs. BUT, they should never be taken as a basis as some Muslims do. They have been taught the wrong things.

This --> "BTW, the first verses of the Quran that were revealed to the prophet consisted of 19 words. The next verses consisted of 19x2 words and so on." <-- is probably not true. What verses were these? Also maybe that arabic "In the name of Allah, the evil, the savage" which also has 19 letters and miraculous numbers is perhaps also a magical verse. In any case, this article is for those who believe Islam's relation to mathematical miracles. If you dont believe in this miracle then you dont have to worry about it. --Whale 13:23, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I don't think you truly understand what the average Muslim thinks about the number 19. They think it is a miracle because of the many occurrences of it in the Muslim religion and not just the one occurrence in Bismillah Arhman Arheem. And the part about the verses is true. Look it up. The first verses that were revealed to the prophet were Qur'an 96:1-5.

Also these ayehs have the proof in them about how the human is created from a clot and this was not known 1400 years ago.

<indent reset>I dont care why Muslims believe its a miracle. The article doesnt care about that. It only proves that other anti-Islamic phrases are also miraculous. Embryology has been refuted here. The world wasnt a savage illiterate place before Islam came, contrary to what Muslims are taught. As for those verses, 96:1 has 18 arabic characters (not 19 as you said) and the 2nd verse after that 96:2 has 14 verses if I'm counting correctly. As far as I know 14 is not 19x2. so where did you get your information from and di you verify it? If you're going to start believing in this 19 stuff, like I said, you better believe in the following verse too because it has 19 characters:

بسم الله الخَبِيث الوَحْشِيّ

Translation: In the name of Allah, the Evil, the Savage

Now this verse has 19 characters and all the miracles associated with it are on the page. I guess it must be true because it has all these miracles, right? --Whale 14:06, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I was talking about the number of words, not the number of characters.

I have more to add. I read the so-called disproving of the embroyology stuff and it is based on ayehs that weren't very well translated. I can disprove everything the man wrote in that article and I'll even get somebody with better knowledge than me to talk to you!

Well, if you're going to group 96:1-5 and say its a miracle of 19 words, then I can group anything I say into 19 related things too and bring out the 19 related miracles. ANYTHING can be manipulated to show 19-miracles. The Allah/Evil/Savage verse must be true too because its ANV is 1666 along with it having 19 letters. 666 means the devil so this means "Allah the one, is the devil". Can anyone believe in these mathematical miracles after reading this article?

You didnt even read the article and thought this was a Muslim website. Please first go read the stuff on this site or atleast the article. --Whale 14:32, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

I read the article and what I said was the amount of words that were revealed to the prophet came in intervals of 19. The prophet did not recieve the religion in one day, but over many years. The 5 ayehs that I told you were the first ayehs revealed to the prophet. I also never said 19 is a miracle, but something that was noted by some math-brained Muslim people. The only reason I say it isn't a miracle is because the prophet never told us so. I aslo know that many things have the number 19 in them, but what you need to understand is that 19 stands out because it occurs in the religion many times. This doesn't mean it's a miracle, but people say 19 is a miracle because of these many occurrences. They never said that everything that has 19 is a miracle, but that 19 is a miracle.

Samsams: You are free to write a rebuttal article to anything posted on this wiki, and then place a link at the bottom of the original article. Instead of arguing with us, why don't you try that? Sanitarium 14:55, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

Sorry, I was just trying to clarify that your understanding of what many Muslims claim is kind of wrong and that makes your argument pointless. What the article does, is prove something wrong that is supposedly claimed by Muslims, but was not actually claimed. That was my point. That puts a bad impression on the reader and it shouldn't, as you can't go around saying that Muslims are claiming things.

Thats right, if you want please write up an article on it. --Whale 15:06, 4 May 2009 (PDT)

[edit] General comments

Wow, the vandalism of this page sure shows that many Muslims don't know Arabic :P Sanitarium 00:09, 15 August 2009 (PDT)

Yea they only know the regular "bismillah", allah akbar and so on. --Whale 06:04, 15 August 2009 (PDT)